HFA Awards

About the ranking order

Ever since I started HFA, people have been asking about a “Bestenliste”. Made familiar by the German magazine “Audio”, the Bestenliste is a Ranking Order of best-performing products. The difficulty with such lists is that I feel that there are too many factors at play to be able to pronounce any product as best, let alone hand out points.

The audio hobby involves mixing and matching and a drive to find the component that makes the perfect fit for a given situation. Especially if it has a strong character, that component may work superbly synergistically in that context even if it may work less spectacularly in another system. Thus, the measure of success is relative and often subject to taste.

The HFA ranking order reflects how well-liked the components are relative to one another, based on my personal preferences and irrespective of the retail price. Thus, HFA Favorites and Highly Recommended items appear in all price classes.

Although I strive to be as objective as possible, the reality is that my personal taste and system synergy will always play a role. Therefore, the list should be considered as an inspirational guide, not as a definitive ranking. In my reviews, I will always add perspective. That’s why it is meaningful to also read the associated review(s) after consulting the list.

What’s included in the list?

Only products that have been listened to in the controlled HFA environment are included, and then, only those that I feel are worth mentioning. As it follows, the below is not a complete index of all the articles on HFA.

Please note that this list is frequently updated to always reflect the latest state of affairs as well as my most recent personal preferences. As I hear more products and gain new insights, the order of the products may change over time. Awards are valid for at least 1 year, but after that, they may change. For instance, a product may change from “Favorite” to “Highly Recommended” if no longer a part of the HFA inventory, or it may lose its award if it is sufficiently overshadowed by the competition.

About the Awards

An honorable award for those exceptional products that had such a profound impact that they made a lasting impression.

The Best of the Best, the Cream of the Crop, the Dogs Bullocks. These are the products that, for me, define the state of the art.

The most-loved products in each price category that have been selected as part of the HFA Associated Equipment inventory to be used as references for all reviewing purposes. HFA Favorites are also Highly Recommended.

The most-loved products in each price category that are recommended for short-listing. Similar to HFA Favorites except that they are not part of the HFA Associated Equipment inventory.

Prices

Most of the quoted numbers below are retail prices in Euro, at the moment of review. Some products do not have European price lists, in these cases, another currency is shown. Classics can only be found second-hand and therefore do not have prices mentioned.

Loudspeakers

Wilson Audio Alexx V (from €160.000 per pair)
Bowers & Wilkins 801 D4 (€35.000 per pair) (Highly Recommended)
Martin Logan ESL 15A (€30.000 per pair) (Highly Recommended)
Wolf von Langa SON (€14.990 per pair) (Highly Recommended)
Magico S1 MkII (€23.000 per pair) (HFA Favorite)
Kroma Audio Carmen (€57.950 per pair) (Highly Recommended)
Marten Mingus Quintet (€48.500 per pair)
Apogee Scintilla
Wilson Watt/Puppy system 8
Aequo Audio Stilla (€18.000 per pair) (Highly Recommended)
Martin Logan ESL 11A (€14.200 per pair) (Highly Recommended)
Vivid Audio Giya G3 s2 (€17.495 per pair)
Martin Logan Ethos
Paradigm Persona B (€8.400 per pair)
Apogee Duetta Signature
Apogee Centaur
Apogee Diva
AvantGarde Uno G2
Magnepan MG 3.6R
Franco Serblin Accordo (€8.880 per pair)
Xavian Premio Esclusivo (€4.400 per pair) (Highly Recommended)
Qln Sonora (from €4.400 per pair)
Graham Audio LS5/9 (€4.200 per pair)
Graham Audio LS5/9f (€4.600 per pair)
Qln Prestige One (from €2.700 per pair)
Qln Prestige Three (from €9.500 per pair)
Meridian DSP5200SE (€14.190 per pair)
Analysis Audio Epsilon (€13.800 per pair)
Diptyque DP 107 (€6.050 euro per pair) (Highly Recommended)
Wilson Sabrina (€22.490 per pair)
Wilson Benesch Precision P1.0 (€7.200 per pair)
Care Orchestra Celestial Deep Breath Evo (from €2.250 per pair)
Care Orchestra Spiritual Blue Evo (from €3.410 per pair)
Xavian Perla Esclusiva (€1.990 per pair) (HFA Favorite)
Pylon Audio Jasper 25 (from €5.500 per pair)
Wilson Benesch Precision P2.0 (€11.400 per pair)
Gustavson Audio LS-One (€3.750 per pair)
Dali Ikon 6

Pre Amplifier

Aries Cerat Impera Reference (€22.000) (Magnificent Masterpiece)
CH Precision L1 (€31.000) (HFA Favorite)
Aries Cerat Incito S (€14.200) (Highly Recommended)
Zesto Leto 1.5 (€9.500) (Highly Recommended)
Jeff Rowland Corus + PSU (€30.695) (Highly Recommended)
Jeff Rowland Corus (€20.950) (Highly Recommended)
Vermeer TWO (€24.990) (in analog preamp mode) (Highly Recommended)
COS D10 (€4.500) (Highly Recommended)
AudioGD Master 1 (€1.399) (HFA Favorite)
Classé Delta Pre (€11.000) (as analog preamp) (Highly Recommended)
Jeff Rowland Synergy 2i + BPS1 and external switched charger
Lejonklou Sagatun stereo (€3.300) (Highly Recommended)
Lejonklou Sagatun mono (€6.600)
Ayon Stealth (€6.995) (HFA Favorite)
Zanden 3100 (€12.490)
Jeff Rowland Coherence II
Manley Neo-Classic 300B (€7.679)
Conrad Johnson CT5
Ayon Orbis
Jeff Rowland Synergy 2i
Jeff Rowland Synergy 2
NuPrime AMG-PRA (€1.595)
NuPrime AMG-HPA (used only as line stage) (€1.895)
Manley Jumbo Shrimp (€4.979)
Jeff Rowland Capri s2 (€4.950)
Anthem STR (€3.999)

Phono Preamp

CH Precision P1 (€31.000) (HFA Favorite) (Magnificent Masterpiece)
AVID Pulsare II (€7.700) (HFA Favorite)
Pass XP-17 (€4.900) (Highly Recommended)
Zesto Andros Deluxe (€8.900) (Highly Recommended)
atm audio Migjorn (€5.900 ex VAT)
Lejonklou Entity 1.1 (€1.875) (Highly Recommended)
AVID Pulsus (€2.000)
Lejonklou Entity (€1.800)
Sw1x LPU 1 (Signature) (1500 UKP) (HFA Favorite)
Benz Lukaschek PP1 (Highly Recommended)
Line Magnetic LP-33 (€1.989)
AVID Pellar (€990)
Schiit Mani (v.1)

Power Amplifier

CH Precision A1.5 (€34.600) (HFA Favorite) (Magnificent Masterpiece)
Soulution 711 (€55.000) (Highly Recommended)
Zanden 8120 (€21.490)
Jeff Rowland 725 (€43.500)
Audio GD Master 2H (€4.089 per pair) (Highly Recommended)
Analog Domain M75P (€19.600) (Highly Recommended)
Bricasti M15 (€19.900)
Classé Delta Stereo Power (€14.000) (Highly Recommended)
Zesto Eros 300 (€25.500 per pair) (Highly Recommended)
CAT JL5 Black Path (€24.000)
Jeff Rowland Model 6
NuPrime Evolution STA (€4.995) (Highly Recommended)
NuPrime 2x AMG-STA in mono (€3.190) (Highly Recommended)
Ayre VX-5 Twenty (€11.700)
Manley Snapper (€9.670 per pair) (Highly Recommended)
Viva Verona XL SE
atm-audio EPM-50 (20.390 per pair + tax)
Lejonklou Tundra stereo (€3.200) (Highly Recommended)
Lejonklou Tundra mono (€6.000)
NuPrime AMG-STA (€1.599) (HFA Favorite)
Naiu Laboratories Ella MK2 (€7.890)
Anthem STR (€5.999)
Bryston 3B Cubed (€5.790) (Highly Recommended)
Bryston 4B Cubed (€6.990) (Highly Recommended)
Bryston 14B Cubed (€12.490)
Pass Labs X250.5
Audio Physic Strada Mono
atm-audio EPM-700 (from €5.838 per pair)
Electrocompaniet AW600 Nemo (€16.598)
Electrocompaniet AW180 (€8.998)
McIntosh MA6900
NuPrime ST-10M (€3.190)
NuPrime ST-10 (€1.595) (HFA Favorite)
PrimaLuna DiaLogue Premium (€3.375)
Monrio mp11 (€3.960)
NuPrime Evolution One (€3.995 euro per pair)
Jeff Rowland 125 (€3.900)
Jeff Rowland 201
Jeff Rowland 525 (€5.700)
Xindak XA6950 II (€1689)

Integrated Amplifier

Goldmund Telos 590 Nextgen (€27.250) (Highly Recommended)
Analog Domain M75D (€21.750) (Highly Recommended)
Mark Levinson no. 5805 (€9.190) (Highly Recommended)
Melody Everest 211 (€14.950)
Grandinote Shinai (€11.400)
Western Electric 91E (€17.250)
Line Magnetic LM-805IA (€4.999)
LM-845 Premium (€9.999)
Melody MDA2 (€5.850) (Highly Recommended)
Ayon Spirit III (€5.890) (HFA Favorite)
Accuphase E-260 (€5.150) (Highly Recommended)
Kinki Studio EX M-1 (€2295)
Ayon Scorpio (€3.895)
Line Magnetic LM-845IA (€3.999)
Line Magnetic LM-150IA (€4.999)
Fezz Lybra (from €3.750)
Melody Action Ultra (€1.649)
Astin Trew AT2-2100 (€2.100)

CD Player

Mark Levinson No.390s
Wadia S7i
Wadia 781i
Wadia 861
Wadia 581
Linn Sondek CD12
dCS P8 SACD Player
Meridian 808.3 Signature Reference
Lector CDP-707 + PSU-707 (€2.990 + €13990)
Ayon CD-10 II (from €4.125) (HFA Favorite)
Bryston BCD-3 (€4.250) (Highly Recommended)
Accuphase DP410
Accuphase DP400
Esoteric X03 SE
Marantz CD94
Meridian 508.24
Ayre CX7 (€3.890)
Meridian 506.24
Marantz CD11LE
Audio Aero Prestige Signature
Philips CD880
Sony CDP-XA50ES
Rega Jupiter
Rega Planet
Vincent S3
Emotiva ERC2

CD Transport

Ayon CD-T II Signature (originally €5.995)(€7.995 from Jan 2022) (Highly Recommended)
Aqua La Diva M2 (€8.600) (Highly Recommended)
Aqua La Diva (€7.890) (Highly Recommended)
Mark Levinson 37
Mark Levinson 390S used as transport
Ayon CD-T
Sonic Frontiers Transport 3
PS Audio Directstream Memory Player (€7.495)
Jay’s Audio CDT2-Mk2 (€2.495) (Highly Recommended)
Marantz CD94
Proceed PDT-3
Philips CD880
CEC TL1x transport

DAC

CH Precision C1 (from €28.300) (HFA Favorite) (Magnificent Masterpiece)
Vermeer TWO (€24.990) (Highly Recommended)
Aries Cerat Heléne (€13.500) (Highly Recommended)
Aqua Formula xHD (€13.670) (HFA Favorite)
Concert Fidelity DAC-040 (~€11.000) (Highly Recommended)
Mola-Mola Tambaqui (€10.000) (Highly Recommended)
Denafrips Terminator Plus (€7.000) (Highly Recommended)
APL DSD-AR (€6.990) (Highly Recommended)
Classé Delta Pre (in DAC+Preamp mode) (€11.000) (Highly Recommended)
Wadia 521
Bricasti M21 (€18.900)
Bricasti M1 Classic (€9.900) (Highly Recommended)
Classé Delta Pre (€11.000) (used only as DAC) (Highly Recommended)
Meridian Ultra DAC (€19.950)
Meridian 818 (€9.950) (Highly Recommended)
Aqua La Scala mkII (€6.860) (Highly Recommended)
Denafrips Venus II (€3.308)
Denafrips Pontus II (€1.951) (Highly Recommended)
Wadia 27ix GNSC
Wadia 27
Jeff Rowland Aeris DAC + PSU (€24.300) (Highly Recommended)
Jeff Rowland Aeris DAC (€13.800) (Highly Recommended)
Weiss DAC502 DSP DAC and Network Renderer (€10.000)
Weiss DAC501 DSP DAC and Network Renderer (€8.900)
COS D10 (€4.500) (DAC+analog preamp used direct to a power amp) (Highly Recommended)
Ayon Stealth (€6.995) (HFA Favorite)
Lector Digicode S-192 (€3.990)
Jay’s Audio DAC-2 Signature (€2.995)
Wadia 25
Wadia 26
Esoteric D-07
PS Audio Directstream DAC (€7.595)
PS Audio NWD (Nu Wave DAC) (€1.199)
Mark Levinson No. 360s
Mark Levinson No. 360
Wadia 121 with Teradak external power supply
dCS Elgar
Denafrips Venus (2.898 USD +tax) (Highly Recommended)
Exogal Comet (€2.590)
EC Designs Mosaic T DAC
Bryston BDA-3 (€4.150) (Highly Recommended)
Ayre QB-9
SW1X DAC 2 (2.500 UKP)
Matrix Element-X (€2.995)
Audio Synthesis DAX Decade
Denafrips Ares II (€915)
Wadia 121
Sw1x DAC 1 (1.050 UKP)
Matrix X-Sabre Pro (€1.700)
Mark Levinson No.36

Music Server

Grimm Audio MU1 (€9.980 ex storage) (HFA Favorite)
Antipodes K50 (€15.995 ex storage) (HFA Favorite)
Antipodes CX + EX (€6.895+ €4.650) (Highly Recommended)
Pink Faun 2.16x (€12.999)
Antipodes EX Music Server (€4.650) (Highly Recommended)
AudioAanZee Reference Flow MKII (€4.995) (Highly Recommended)
Melco N1ZH/2 Music Server (€4.999) (Highly Recommended)
Aurender S10 Music Server
Melco N1A/2 Music Server (€2.499)
Aurender N10 Music Server (€9.000)
Antipodes DS Base Music Server (from €1.995)

Network Renderer / Streaming Endpoint (without DAC)

Aqua LinQ Network Interface (from €5.680) (HFA Favorite)
Bryston BDP-3 Digital Media Player (4.290) (Highly Recommended)
Bricasti M5 network player (€2.495) (Highly Recommended)
Antipodes EX Music Server (€4.650) (Highly Recommended)
EC Design BBB
Meridian MS200

Network Renderer / Streaming Endpoint (with DAC)

CH Precision C1 (from €28.300) (HFA Favorite) (Magnificent Masterpiece)
Vermeer TWO (€24.990) (Highly Recommended)
Classé Delta Pre (€11.000) (used as Endpoint+DAC+Preamp) (Highly Recommended)
Ayon S10-II Signature (€8.600) (Highly Recommended)
Weiss DAC502 DSP DAC and Network Renderer (€10.000)
Weiss DAC501 DSP DAC and Network Renderer (€8.900)
Meridian Ultra DAC (€19.950)
Meridian 818 DAC/Pre/Network Player (€9.950) (Highly Recommended)
Meridian MS600
Bryston BDA-3.14 Renderer+DAC (€4.840) (Highly Recommended)
Grandinote Volta Network Player (€8.700)
Linn Klimax DS/1 network player
PS Audio PWD MkII
Lejonklou Källa (€5.900)
Linn Klimax DS Network Player

USB/Network Interface

M2Tech HiFace Evo (HFA Favorite)
EC Designs BBB (Highly Recommended)
KingRex UD384 USB Audio Interface + U Power
KingRex UC192 USB Audio Interface
M2Tech HiFace USB-SPDIF converter
Trends UD10.1 USB Audio Interface
Trends UD10.1 Lite USB Audio Interface

Turntables

Origin Live Calypso mk4 with Multi-Layer Platter, Illustrious Tonearm and Silver Hybrid cable (€6.037) (HFA Favorite)
Avid Sequel (€8.800) (Highly Recommended)
Holbo Airbearing Turntable (€6.500)
Avid Diva II SP (€4.100) (Highly Recommended)
Thorens TD1601 (€2.999) (HFA Favorite)
Thorens TD125 mkII
Avid Ingenium (€1.400) (Recommended)
Thorens TD160 Super
Thorens TD160 mkII / TD-145 mkII
Yamaha PX-2
Pioneer PL-L1000
Technics SL7
Technics SL10

Record Cleaning Machines

Degritter (€2.650) (HFA Favorite)
Clearaudio Matrix Silent

Phono Cartridges

Acoustical Systems Palladian (€8.980)
ViRA Aidas Rainbow (€3.100) (HFA Favorite)
Acoustical Systems Aiwon (€6.980)
ViRa Aidas Gala Gold LE (€5.000)
ZYX Bloom3 Silver Plate (€1040) (HFA Favorite)
ViRa Aidas Panzerholz (€1.575)
Goldring Ethos (€1.098)
Benz ACE L
Audio Technica AT33Sa (€799) (Highly Recommended)
Dynavector 10X5 mkII (€700)
Denon DL-304
Audio Technica ATN150mlx (€399) (Highly Recommended)
Dynavector 10X5 mkII (€945)
Shure M97xE (€119)

Interlinks

Stealth Indra Cinch V10 1,0m (€7.000)
Stealth Indra XLR Rev 08 1,5m (€11.900)
AudioQuest Fire cinch (from €2.499) (HFA Favorite)
Jena Labs Valkyrie XLR (€4.100)
Jena Labs Valkyrie Aurora XLR (€2.708)
CH Precision Balanced Link XLR (from €2.050) (HFA Favorite)
Driade Flow Link Reference 808 RCA and XLR (HFA Favorite)
Cardas Clear XLR (from €2.222)
Signal Projects Apollon (from €3.700)
Final Touch Audio Ganymede XLR (from €1850) (HFA Favorite)
FoilFlex XLR (from 530 USD +tax) (HFA Favorite)
FoilFlex cinch (from 450 USD +tax) (HFA Favorite)
Origin Live Silver Hybrid cinch (from 535 UKP)
AudioQuest Water cinch (from €579) (HFA Favorite)
Siltech Paris cinch
Mad Scientist HAC Plus (from 599 USD +tax) (Highly Recommended)
Mad Scientist FCG+ cinch (from 899 USD +tax) (HFA Favorite)
Vermouth Audio Reference XLR (from €1.358)
Transparent Ultra XL cinch
Vermouth Audio Reference cinch (from €760)
Vermouth Black Pearl MkII (450 USD +tax)
Cardas Hexlink Golden 5C XLR
Transparent Reference
Straight Wire Crescendo II
ANTI-CABLES ANTI-IC’s
LessLoss Anchorwave XLR
Signal Projects Lynx (from €950)
Cardas Golden Reference XLR
Cardas Golden Cross XLR
Analysis Plus Solo Crystal Oval XLR
MIT Shotgun S2 XLR
Nordost Red Dawn XLR
Harmonic Technology Truthlink
Analysis Plus Silver Oval XLR
Harmonic Technology Pro Silway
Cardas Quadlink 5C XLR
Vermouth Rhapsody (270 USD +tax)
Ricable Supreme Signal RCA and XLR
Kimber pbj
Kimber Tonik
Elijah Audio Katoen XLR (250 USD +tax)
Black Rhodium Concerto XLR (from 525 UKP)

Tonearm Cables

Origin Live Silver Hybrid (€667) (HFA Favorite)
Vermouth Reference Phono cinch-cinch (from 422 USD +tax)
Vermouth Reference Phono DIN-cinch (from 394 USD +tax)

Loudspeaker Cables

Mad Scientist Black Magic 4-Core ($2.990 for 2,5-meter pair) (HFA Favorite)
Jorma Design Trinity (€2.235 for 2,5m pair) (Highly Recommended)
Mad Scientist Black Magic 2-Core ($1.590 for 2,5-meter pair)
Jorma Design no.3 (€1.590 for 2m pair) (Highly Recommended)
Driade Flow 405 (€800 for 3m pair) (HFA Favorite)
FoilFlex (from 900 USD +tax for 1m pair) (HFA Favorite)
Nordost Red Dawn
AudioQuest Castle Rock (€1.490 for 2m pair)
Transparent Reference
ANTI-CABLES Speaker Cable
ASI Liveline
Echole Passion
Cardas Quadlink 5C
Ricable Supreme Speaker Cable
Kimber 8TC
van den Hul Skyline Hybrid
Symo LS4X

Digital Cables

Jorma AES/EBU (from €1200) (HFA Favorite)
Jorma RCA-RCA
Jorma BNC-BNC with RCA adapters
Mad Scientist Audio FCGD+ (from 399 USD + tax) (HFA Favorite)
Mad Scientist Audio Heretical (from 129 USD +tax) (Highly Recommended)
Mogami 3080 Neglex (HFA Favorite)
Belden RG59 (€10 per meter) (HFA Favorite)

USB Cables

Final Touch Audio Sinope (from €1292 ex VAT) (HFA Favorite)
Final Touch Audio Callisto (from €747) (Highly Recommended)
Vermouth Reference (400 USD +tax) (HFA Favorite)
Pink Faun Digital Interlink (€907) (HFA Favorite)
CAD USB 1 (540 UKP for 1m)
Curious Cables (from 340 USD +tax) (Highly Recommended)
Curious Cables Evolved (from 550 USD +tax)
KingRex Unanimous uArt
Way Cables Champagne Plus USB Cable (€933)
Mad Scientist Black Magic (399 USD +tax)
Mad Scientist Heretical USB (from 199 USD +tax)
AudioQuest Diamond (€799 for 1,5m)
Elijah Audio Quad Braid MKII (from €140)

Ethernet Cables

Pink Faun Digital Interlink LAN (€907) (Highly Recommended)
Mad Scientist Black Magic Ethernet (from 399 USD + tax) (Highly Recommended)
ValueLine OEM CAT6 cables

Power Cables

Ansuz Mainz D2 (review forthcoming)
NBS Dragon/Fly
Belden 19364 with Bals schuko and Oyaide 004 connectors (€10 p/m) (HFA Favorite)
Vermouth Audio Reference (€1.300) (HFA Favorite)
Final Touch Audio Elara (€650)
Fusion Audio Romance PC2 (€1.100)
Fusion Audio Enchanter (€1.400)
Mad Scientist Nitro Nano (from 549 USD +tax) (HFA Favorite)
Mamba Audio Powerblast (€3.125)
Taiko Audio Nagado (€799)
LessLoss DFPC Original
Echole Obsession
Taiko Audio Okedo (€399)
NBS Monitor 0
Oyaide Tunami
Cardas Clear Beyond
Way Cables Substance Plus (from €1.725)
Acoustic System International Liveline
Black Rhodium Stream (from 450 UKP)
Kemp Powercord Reference
Shunyata Black Mamba
Furutech Alpha 3 with FI25 & FI-E35 connectors
Furutech FP-TCS31 power cable and FI-28/FI-38 connectors
Harmonic Technology Pro ACII
Lapp 191CY 5G1
Isotek Premium Powercord

Equipment Support

Artesania Exoteryc Audiorack (€5075) (HFA Favorite) (Magnificent Masterpiece)
Artesania Carbon Fiber Linear Arm upgrade (€1.384) (HFA Favorite)
Artesania Aire Floor Platform (€3395) (HFA Favorite)
Artesania Organic Line Modular Rack 3-level (€7.800) (HFA Favorite)
Artesania Organic Line Modular Floor Platform (€2.600) (HFA Favorite)
Artesania Krion Platform (€2.470)
Artesania Digital Server Platform (€1.500)
Artesania ISBAIEBW Standalone Isolation Bases (€458 for 4) (HFA Favorite)
Artesania ISDIWB Beech Wood Component Isolation Discs (€220 for 4) (Highly Recommended)
Finite Elemente Cerapuc (from €280 for 3) (HFA Favorite)
Artesania ISDIWB Beech Wood Isolation Discs (€220 for 4) (Highly Recommended)
Finite Elemente Ceraball Universal (from €135 for 3) (HFA Favorite)
Stillpoints Ultra SS (€750)
Stillpoints Ultra Mini (€399)
Stillpoints Ultra 5 (€2100)
Stillpoints Ultra Base (€195)
Mad Scientist BlackPod Nanotech (from 299 USD +tax)

Room Treatment

R.T.F.S. SiRRAH (€249.90 per unit) (HFA Favorite)
R.T.F.S. Big Block B (€284.90 per 100cm unit) (HFA Favorite)
R.T.F.S. Carreau (€89.90 per unit) (Highly Recommended)
R.T.F.S. Stripe (€79.90 per segment) (HFA Favorite)
R.T.F.S. Ceiling Vane (€425 per unit) (Highly Recommended)
GiK 244 Broadband Bass Trap (approx €95 per unit)

Pricing information should be correct for the moment of review. However, prices can always change and typos or mistakes can be made. Therefore, please consider the info in these overviews as a starter guide, not as definitive information.